Here is the video of the hearing.
http://www.tvw.org/media/mediaplayer.cfm?evid=2011020101&TYPE=V&CFID=2182434&CFTOKEN=57993784&bhcp=1The hearing for SB 5356 starts at about 20:00 minutes into the meeting. You can click on the timeline and get to there right away.
The most important thing is to get the legislation passed. For that reason I have taken a neutral position on the outfitting issue that was brought up. I would suggest that people watch the hearing. If you beleive that public hunters should be able to apply and if you belive one way or another on the outfitting issue, I urge you to make your feelings known to the committee. On another note: I really thought the WDFW made exemplary comments regarding the need for hound hunting.
Here is my response to the Natural Resources Committee members:
kevin.ranker@leg.wa.gov; debbie.regala@leg.wa.gov; karen.fraser@leg.wa.gov; caitlin.gordon@leg.wa.gov; jim.hargrove@leg.wa.gov; bob.morton@leg.wa.gov; val.stevens@leg.wa.gov; dan.swecker@leg.wa.gov; commission@dfw.wa.gov; donny.martorello@dfw.wa.gov; david.ware@dfw.wa.gov
Dear Legislators,
Thanks for taking a few moments to read my message. My name is Dale Denney, my wife Tara and I own Bearpaw Outfitters, I am the outfitter who's business name was mentioned in your recent hearing on SB 5356 (hound hunting cougars). I had planned to appear at the hearing and at the last minute I opted to send a message instead (see attached). I’m sorry I wasn’t at the hearing to answer your questions.
Determining Cougar Sex and Size:
Unknown to the average person and contrary to testimony in the hearing, determining sex of a cougar is a science. I am a professional, this is what I do. An experienced hound hunter can determine sex with 90%+ accuracy just by looking at tracks on the ground. Once a cougar is treed, you can use binoculars to spot the male genitalia area which is unmistakable. There is a dark spot 4 inches below the tail and anus on a male which a female does not have. If you can’t see the back of the cat, bang a stick on the tree and usually the animal will move and you can see the spot if it’s there. In this way only cats of the sex designated to be harvested will be taken. This type of management works effectively in Idaho, Utah, and Montana where hunters harvest desired sex ratios of cats. This is precise wildlife management.
Montana has an excellent training course, in 30 to 60 minutes most anyone can be proficient at sexing cougar. See the Tutorial and take the Test yourself and you will understand that hound hunting can be very sex specific. The WDFW can determine how many females or males they want taken in any unit and maintain the preferred sex ratios in the cougar population by setting quotas or seasons by sex if needed.
See the Test here:
http://fwp.mt.gov/education/hunter/mountainLionID/default.html WDFW Cougar Attack Complaints:
The WDFW contracts with experienced professional hound hunters to respond to cougar attack complaints. My hunting partner, my son and myself have probably responded to about 50 to 60 WDFW cougar and bear complaints involving attacks on livestock, pets, and humans in Stevens and Ferry counties over the last 15 years, (including the near fatal attack on 4 year old Jacob Walsh in Ferry County). My partner’s dogs which were used catch that cougar were trained by providing guided hunts to public sport hunters prior to I-655. In fact we still keep our dogs trained by doing sport hunts in Idaho, Utah, and ocasionally Washington.
Response:
If we receive a call from the WDFW, our hunting equipment and dogs are loaded and we are usually on the way within 15 to 20 minutes of being contacted, we are normally at the scene within 30 to 90 minutes depending on location. The small amount we are paid by WDFW is irrelevant because our investment in dogs and equipment is so large. We do this as a public service and because we enjoy working our dogs.
Costs of Hounds:
My son and I have trained hounds which are worth about $40,000, snowmobiles worth $25,000, 4x4 hound hunting trucks worth about $70,000 with $1,000 in premium tires on each truck that last only one season, about $10,000 in other specialized hound hunting equipment, plus it costs from $100 to $200 per day in fuel to effectively hunt cougar. It's expensive to own hounds. I recover some of that expense by taking other hunters hunting in the states where I am allowed to provide guided hunts. Some hound owners have good paying jobs in order to afford to own their hounds. But no matter how a person affords their hounds, it is still imperative that those dogs get hunted or they will not be effective at catching cougar.
Economics
Prior to I-655 we had roughly 30 bear hunters and 15 cougar hunters annually who came to Stevens County. These hunters shopped in town at the sporting goods shop, souvenir shop, restaurants, quick stops, and more. To replace the business that we lost overnight with I-655, we purchased businesses in other states and now take a large number of hunters from Washington to Idaho, Montana, and Utah to spend their money.
Regarding Outfitting:
I watched the video of the hearing on Feb 7, and I saw that Outfitting of cougar hunts seemed to be an issue of concern. I don't believe that outfitting should be the pivotal issue of this legislation but since it has been addressed you need to hear some answers.
Bearpaw Outfitters offer a service to the public. If a public hunter wants to cougar hunt but does not own dogs, they can hire us for our dogs and expertise. To put the amount we charge into perspective, please ask any law enforcement agency how much it costs to catch a suspect who required 6 full days of around the clock surveillance and 2 or 3 police dogs to get the job done. What would a mechanic charge to work on your car for 6 full days and provide you with transportation, lodging, and meals while he works on your car? Hire a lawyer to work 6 full days!
We charge $4,950 for a 6-day cougar hunt in Idaho, $4250 for a hunt in Utah, and $2,950 for a cougar hunt in Washington. This year we did 5 hunts in Idaho and 2 paid hunts in Washington. This helps pay the cost of equipment and fuel, but hound hunting is a money losing proposition (do the math), however, we continue to hound hunt because we love to hunt with hounds. We earn our living and support our family with the many turkey, deer, and elk hunters who hunt with us.
I would like to point out that outfitting does help me to afford to keep my dogs trained. But the issue of outfitting really amounts to whether or not you want to allow hunters who do not own hounds a chance to apply for cougar hound permits and hire a guide with hounds to help them.
I suggest that you ask other hunters and ask the WDFW if they prefer to exclude or to include the ability for public hunters who do not own hounds, the opportunity to apply for a cougar tag and hire a hound hunter with hounds to help them hunt a cougar if they are lucky enough to draw a tag.
My primary concern is that this bill passes so that my son and I, and other hound hunters can hunt our dogs in Washington. This way we will not all have to drive to Idaho, California, or Utah to train our dogs. Simply put, if there is no cougar bill, there will be no way to train our hounds in Washington.
I support cougar hound hunting legislation regardless of who you choose to hunt and shoot the cats.
Loss of Hound Hunters:
Hound hunters are a very small group, we all know each other, but our numbers are dwindling rapidly, many hound hunters have moved to other states and others continue to quit hunting since I-655 passed in 1996. The few experienced and knowledgeable hound hunters who remain in this state need SB 5356 to pass. Let me re-emphasize, our dogs will be no good unless they are hunted.
With the continued loss of experienced hound hunters around the state, the WDFW may eventually have to consider hiring professional hound hunters from out of state to bring experienced hounds into Washington. At a time when government needs to find ways to cut costs, it would be a loss to the citizens of Washington to not pass SB 5356. It has been proven that the Cougar Pilot program has reduced complaints by 75% and that hound hunters or public hunters are glad to pay the state for the opportunity to hunt cougar.
Pursuit Seasons
If anti-hunting groups really wanted to save cougars, they would recommend Cougar Pursuit Seasons. It’s not necessary for hound hunters to kill every cougar caught in order to keep our dogs trained. It is just as effective to pursue and tree a cougar, pet our dogs, and leave the cougar in the tree physically unharmed. By doing this, the hounds get the experience of tracking and treeing cougar and every cougar left alive in the tree has imprinted in their mind, a good reason to modify their behavior and avoid pets and humans. From what I have seen, a cougar will often head for more remote areas to escape the unfriendly experience it just had with man and dogs. This will help maintain a fear of man and dogs in general and arguably could result in fewer cougar attacks without the need of killing as many cougar.
I highly recommend that language be included in the bill allowing the WDFW the option to use pursuit seasons for cougar behavior modification and dog training purposes. There is high likelihood a pursuit season could benefit the cougar population and Washington citizens by reinforcing the fear of man and dogs.
My main concern is that HB5356 is passed in one form or another to allow hounds to be trained and cougar populations managed before cougar attacks occur rather than after cougar attacks have happened.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
